I haven’t yet read the NY Mag article, where perhaps this is discussed.
But isn’t Joleene the very same woman that Amy repeatedly reaches out to in the book, based on a hunch that she was also one of the teacher’s victims? The woman who refuses to talk about it or acknowledge any abuse? (Perhaps out of shame, or perhaps because Amy’s hunch was wrong)
Jolene,Jolene,it's rolling on carpet laugh time. OK it's a pseudonym but is or was anybody ever really called Jolene but then there are Yanks called Randy. Maybe the teacher was Randy.
The fact that she was willing, as a self-described perfectionist, to overthrow her seemingly perfect life to pursue this so doggedly suggests to me that it is more true than not. She had nothing to gain except peace and I hope she found it.
Having not yet read the book nor the article, the sexual abuse of young girls (and boys) is sadly too commonplace. It could be that both Jolene and Amy both experienced the same thing. Regarding the MDMA experience, I have heard that the concept of time gets distorted when one is going through a psychedelic experience. What felt like five minutes may have been an hour. And the lawsuits show that neither woman has healed.
Thank you, David. I thought about publishing my story… but you and a few other wise people have helped me decide that nobody needs to read another sexual abuse story!
David, I’ve read her book and will now go look up the articles you’ve referenced. This “doubting” of Amy Griffin as a rape victim reminds me of Christine Blasey Ford accusing Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh of sexually assaulting her during his Supreme Court Senate confirmation hearings. I believed Blasey Ford… inconceivable to me that a woman would make that up and talk about it on a stage for all the world to hear (and judge). I see parallels; why would Amy Griffin fabricate this story and write a memoir about it? Maybe I’m naive, but the pain of exposing herself so publicly is too great.
I’ve been assaulted more than once and was sexually harassed in high school at Interlochen Arts Academy which is now famous due not only to its excellent educational reputation but also its connection with Epstein. I’ve also become quite skeptical of any woman who makes a project out of her alleged sexual abuse. Me Too made it too easy to ruin men’s lives for no reason and chilled of not made actively hostile the relations between the sexes for years now. What used to be an unfortunate comment is now treated like a crime. I refuse to share the details of anything that happened to me in public and it’s the last thing I’d want to be famous for. Everyone knows that girls have been abused. There is no need to raise awareness. I wish they would deal with these things within the justice system, their families and maybe a therapist and not drag the rest of us through it.
I think, however, if someone decides to go public and does not have recourse to the justice system, the right thing to do is to believe them unless there’s evidence to the contrary. I can’t know what it’s like to have suffered abuse, suppressed it, and then feel like you needed to do something about it.
Just believe all women whatever they say. That's the credo but it's increasingly getting pushed back. We in England don't believe a word that dreadful Sussex Pudding puts out .
I'm very sorry that you were abused, and I hope you are doing well. But I truly can't imagine that you think that many men have been 'harmed' by false accusations during Me Too. Except for Harvey Weinstein and Epstein himself, most celebrity men have been 'cancelled' for a year or two (or not at all, just laid low for a bit) and paid no real price.
And as far as the justice system, well, Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh have lifetime positions on the Supreme Court, so I'm not sure that the justice system supports most women with abuse claims.
It’s true that women have fabricated abuse. But those who have endured this horrific act of violence have different ways of dealing with it. Some need privacy while others need to “come out” as part of their therapy.
I respect and admire you. I am now 71 and I have spent this whole span of years totally untouched and I bothered by any male sexual attentions whatever so it seems that I am the only female living on this whole planet who can't write a book about prolonged sexual abuse. So I actually feel a bit of envy and jealousy. My impregnabilty means I am such a dullard with no spark of wit or imagination to inspire anyone to possess me. Cor,I wouldn't have brought much in at the Slave Market. However aged 17 and I now see driven by some sort of biological need to throw off my virginity (who wants to be a 71 year old virgin unless you're Mother Theresa) I managed to organize myself into a situation where that would happen,and moonlight and roses it was not. I found myself trapped in a relationship with a psycho stalker who owned me like a possession,luckily for me aged 20 he spotted someone else to hit on so I was free. In a society circa 1975 that only respected and accommodated couples. Even in money terms. Thumbs have got a lot better in those ways since then. So why are these silly women working to get it all thrown away by their sobstuff memoirs that portray them as helpless victims.
Not a book I will read, but I’m as ever admiring of your fair, balanced assessment of things, and that you believe women (and dismiss the easy “she wanted attention”). Thank you, David.
"The truth is that she spoke about her misfortune without any shame in order to cover up the other misfortune, the real one, that was burning in her insides."-Chronicle of a Death Foretold by Gabriel García Márquez,
David, this may be the most difficult topic you’ve raised yet for me to offer a comment. Sexual abuse is horrific. Inexcusable. At the same time, falsely accusing someone of such an horrendous crime is also inexcusable. Profiting - whether monetarily, with an intent to gain notoriety, or otherwise - from untruths is also offensive. There seem to be a number of potential conflicts here - with someone being wronged. You seem to have struggled to find what you consider the right path through it all. I commend you for it. You may be correct. I love to read, with my favorites focusing on the human conditions/emotions like Grapes of Wrath, Anna Karenina, David Copperfield, Lonesome Dove. Because of your note today I will leave my comfort zone and go buy and read this book. One thing I will be searching for is what was the goal in writing this.
Thanks Scott. It’s very hard to prove that the abuse did not happen. As well, there’s no forensic proof that it did. So, we’re left with the testimony of the victim and an assessment of why she would make these accusations if they are untrue. It is a difficult topic and I’ll be interested to hear what you think after you read the book.
I haven't read the book, but I am aware of the story and the articles. I do remember the publicity when the book came out, with all the celebrities and high profile NYT story, which is unusual for both a 'normie', and for a sexual abuse story.
I can understand why the ghostwriter may not have gone into detail about Amy's wealth and lifestyle, though, given that Belle Burden DID go into detail and it still wasn't quite enough for some people, and the subsequent 'can you really feel sorry for a rich woman' discourse. I know publication dates would probably indicate no coincidence in timing, but I can see a writer thinking that people would not be as sympathetic if they got the full view of her lifestyle.
When I read about all that lying, accusing and distorting, I feel seduced to state that
the math teacher at Riverdale Country School who didn´t deny the accusation, stands
out as a light amidst all the darkness of all those „normal“ „successful“ people.
In Germany - I don´t know about US or other countries - we have projects of Universities,
hospitals/treatment centres for mental disorders a.o. who established and provided Prevention Services for individuals who experience sexual attraction toward children and adolescents, and for the years I worked there as a therapist, the demand was consistently immense.
This demonstrates at least two things: first, that a significant number of people with pedophilic attractions—who are no more responsible for their sexual feelings than anyone else, and who "did not choose“ it just as hetero- or homosexuals did not „choose“ their sexuality—are fully aware that acting on their sexuality causes serious harm to others; and second, that this is by no means a "marginal phenomenon" but is actually *very* widespread.
Therefore, suppression and punishment (at least not solely/alone) are not viable options—they only as a result harm the children possibly involved—nor is "keeping children away from sexuality and sex education"; on the contrary, their awareness needs to be sharpened and developed, and they must not be left to deal with these matters alone.
Tell THAT to "MAGA" ...!
It is common knowledge not only among people who have own children that children ask questions about all sorts of things, including sexuality—usually without even knowing what it is.
My own children began asking on this even before they were three.
We must not strip them of this unselfconscious openness; instead, we should try to provide appropriate answers based on the child's lead—not the adult’s.
It is very essential especially for victims to always have the trust to turn to an adult, preferably of course their parents !, when „something happens“. If children get the feeling they „should not talk about these things“, this is an advantage for misusers.
Those who sought help through these prevention programs—protected by anonymity—came from all walks of life and age groups; about a third were women—dispelling the persistent myth that "only men do such things“.
For years, I worked as an expert evaluator and therapist with offenders and violent criminals, and later with many "abused" children and adolescents as well; after all, it is crucial to know and understand "both sides" of the issue.
In the case of the children, they often did not appear "disturbed"; instead, they would frequently talk incessantly and confide in me with guileless trust. They often felt a need to make up for lost time of no-talking, as they evidently lacked a trusting relationship with their parents.
The children who were best able to process and overcome their experiences were, almost without exception, those who possessed a healthy sense of their own bodies and were "sexually informed."
For children from whom topics regarding sexuality had been withheld—or even strictly forbidden—it was almost always very difficult to confront and process these issues. They didn´t even have words for „that“ !
Many were simply unable to cope with it, but the cause for that laid prior to the criminal act.
And not infrequently, I witnessed situations where even the act itself was not the worst part for the children; rather, it was the way "adults" reacted—often hysterically, inappropriately, and excessively—while paying little or no heed to the children, who needed calm, understanding, and care in that situation.
Almost invariably, these were "adults" who themselves struggled with (significant) issues regarding sexuality.
It is high time to bring this subject out of the realm of hysteria and darkness. Darkness is where violent offenders and blackmailers find it easiest to operate.
If someone is an alcoholic, they must learn to manage the condition to avoid harming themselves; likewise, if someone has pedophilic urges, they must learn to manage them to avoid harming others.
Repression and condemnation do nothing to help (potential) victims.
There is a robust literature on the dubious nature of recovered memories, and the possibility of suddenly remembering abuse that happened repeatedly from 12 to 16 seems pretty unlikely to me. In this case I ask, what about the cruelty of believing a very credibly innocent person has committed a terrible crime?
One of the flaws of the book was making the recovery overly dramatic and overly “out of thin air” for the sake of drama. In the interview with NYMag, Amy talks about that. Also, in the book she recalls wanting to talk about the abuse to a college friend.
Sylvia Plath accused her father and later researchers who painstakingly checked times and dates and places showed she made it all up. And she accused her mother of being abusive because she cared about his she dressed and got her schoolwork done. God knows what she'd have made of cooking the evening meal or cleaning the house at 10 years old. As just part of normal. Entitled princess didn't know she was born.
Thank you, David, for uplifting the need to "believe Survivors". I am a survivor, a trauma therapist and a circle keeper for restorative/transformative justice. I have worked with thousands of survivors and perpetrators who themselves are usually survivors.
I have never met someone who made up a story of abuse. I repeat, I have never met a survivor who I believed was lying. I have been involved in situations where a parent accuses another parent of abusing their children in the midst of a custody battle and its found that the accusing parent had fabricated the story.
A deep dive into the repressed/recovered memory literature and movement including the identification of "false memory syndrome" illuminates very complex psychological and cultural issues at play that made this controversy highly emotional for many.
I am not saying that no one is falsely accused (NSVRC cites an article that found over the course of a 10 yr period, 2%-10% of sexual assaults studied were considered "false allegations"). The incidents are considered "low".
I am saying that disclosing abuse is most often an extremely traumatizing experience and most of us do everything we can to avoid it unless/until we can no longer survive. According to the NIH, between 30-40% of survivors of childhood sexual abuse attempt suicide. The pain of living with the sequela of PTSD can be unbearable.
Trauma recovery is often marked by a stage called Post-traumatic growth. This is a time in recovery where survivors look for ways to make meaning out of the violence they experienced. Survivors might start a foundation, engage in activism to support survivors or keep people safe from sexual violence, write about their experience to help other survivors or warn people about risks of sexual assault. This work is often met with resistance from their community, their family and maybe even their employer.
The costs are so high when one talks openly about sexual assault and we know that. That is precisely why so many of us never tell our stories.
Thank you Joy for your comment from a position of personal and professional experience. I can only imagine the trauma of disclosing abuse like Amy suffered.
I haven’t yet read the NY Mag article, where perhaps this is discussed.
But isn’t Joleene the very same woman that Amy repeatedly reaches out to in the book, based on a hunch that she was also one of the teacher’s victims? The woman who refuses to talk about it or acknowledge any abuse? (Perhaps out of shame, or perhaps because Amy’s hunch was wrong)
It’s a different woman who Amy calls “Claudia.”
Jolene,Jolene,it's rolling on carpet laugh time. OK it's a pseudonym but is or was anybody ever really called Jolene but then there are Yanks called Randy. Maybe the teacher was Randy.
The fact that she was willing, as a self-described perfectionist, to overthrow her seemingly perfect life to pursue this so doggedly suggests to me that it is more true than not. She had nothing to gain except peace and I hope she found it.
Self etc,crazy person in other words. This is her sexual fantasy.
Having not yet read the book nor the article, the sexual abuse of young girls (and boys) is sadly too commonplace. It could be that both Jolene and Amy both experienced the same thing. Regarding the MDMA experience, I have heard that the concept of time gets distorted when one is going through a psychedelic experience. What felt like five minutes may have been an hour. And the lawsuits show that neither woman has healed.
Thank you, David. I thought about publishing my story… but you and a few other wise people have helped me decide that nobody needs to read another sexual abuse story!
I would say that the lawsuits show that these dolls have too much money.
What matters most to people and to God, in my belief system, is "faith expressed in love" (Galatians 5:6)
But Jesus himself says to be wise as a serpent.
...and harmless as a dove (Matthew 10:16)
David, I’ve read her book and will now go look up the articles you’ve referenced. This “doubting” of Amy Griffin as a rape victim reminds me of Christine Blasey Ford accusing Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh of sexually assaulting her during his Supreme Court Senate confirmation hearings. I believed Blasey Ford… inconceivable to me that a woman would make that up and talk about it on a stage for all the world to hear (and judge). I see parallels; why would Amy Griffin fabricate this story and write a memoir about it? Maybe I’m naive, but the pain of exposing herself so publicly is too great.
Completely agree with you.
I’ve been assaulted more than once and was sexually harassed in high school at Interlochen Arts Academy which is now famous due not only to its excellent educational reputation but also its connection with Epstein. I’ve also become quite skeptical of any woman who makes a project out of her alleged sexual abuse. Me Too made it too easy to ruin men’s lives for no reason and chilled of not made actively hostile the relations between the sexes for years now. What used to be an unfortunate comment is now treated like a crime. I refuse to share the details of anything that happened to me in public and it’s the last thing I’d want to be famous for. Everyone knows that girls have been abused. There is no need to raise awareness. I wish they would deal with these things within the justice system, their families and maybe a therapist and not drag the rest of us through it.
I think, however, if someone decides to go public and does not have recourse to the justice system, the right thing to do is to believe them unless there’s evidence to the contrary. I can’t know what it’s like to have suffered abuse, suppressed it, and then feel like you needed to do something about it.
So the absence of contrary evidence is now the deciding factor in believing potential victims?
Just believe all women whatever they say. That's the credo but it's increasingly getting pushed back. We in England don't believe a word that dreadful Sussex Pudding puts out .
I'm very sorry that you were abused, and I hope you are doing well. But I truly can't imagine that you think that many men have been 'harmed' by false accusations during Me Too. Except for Harvey Weinstein and Epstein himself, most celebrity men have been 'cancelled' for a year or two (or not at all, just laid low for a bit) and paid no real price.
And as far as the justice system, well, Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh have lifetime positions on the Supreme Court, so I'm not sure that the justice system supports most women with abuse claims.
In Great Britain fuggedit!
It’s true that women have fabricated abuse. But those who have endured this horrific act of violence have different ways of dealing with it. Some need privacy while others need to “come out” as part of their therapy.
I respect and admire you. I am now 71 and I have spent this whole span of years totally untouched and I bothered by any male sexual attentions whatever so it seems that I am the only female living on this whole planet who can't write a book about prolonged sexual abuse. So I actually feel a bit of envy and jealousy. My impregnabilty means I am such a dullard with no spark of wit or imagination to inspire anyone to possess me. Cor,I wouldn't have brought much in at the Slave Market. However aged 17 and I now see driven by some sort of biological need to throw off my virginity (who wants to be a 71 year old virgin unless you're Mother Theresa) I managed to organize myself into a situation where that would happen,and moonlight and roses it was not. I found myself trapped in a relationship with a psycho stalker who owned me like a possession,luckily for me aged 20 he spotted someone else to hit on so I was free. In a society circa 1975 that only respected and accommodated couples. Even in money terms. Thumbs have got a lot better in those ways since then. So why are these silly women working to get it all thrown away by their sobstuff memoirs that portray them as helpless victims.
Well researched, thought out, and argued, David. A smart and sensitive response to a sad and horrific story - both the original and the aftermath.
I don't believe a word of it but thats of no account really.
Not a book I will read, but I’m as ever admiring of your fair, balanced assessment of things, and that you believe women (and dismiss the easy “she wanted attention”). Thank you, David.
Being 'nice' is going out of fashion. Good isn't always nice,and nice isn't always good.
Um…okay?
Exactly, Maya. Thanks for doing the deep dive, David. Not sure I feel the need to adjudicate this one but I appreciate having multiple perspectives.
"The truth is that she spoke about her misfortune without any shame in order to cover up the other misfortune, the real one, that was burning in her insides."-Chronicle of a Death Foretold by Gabriel García Márquez,
What does that mean? I'm illiterate.
I will skip the book but appreciate your meticulous and thoughtful analysis of the controversy.
David, this may be the most difficult topic you’ve raised yet for me to offer a comment. Sexual abuse is horrific. Inexcusable. At the same time, falsely accusing someone of such an horrendous crime is also inexcusable. Profiting - whether monetarily, with an intent to gain notoriety, or otherwise - from untruths is also offensive. There seem to be a number of potential conflicts here - with someone being wronged. You seem to have struggled to find what you consider the right path through it all. I commend you for it. You may be correct. I love to read, with my favorites focusing on the human conditions/emotions like Grapes of Wrath, Anna Karenina, David Copperfield, Lonesome Dove. Because of your note today I will leave my comfort zone and go buy and read this book. One thing I will be searching for is what was the goal in writing this.
Thanks Scott. It’s very hard to prove that the abuse did not happen. As well, there’s no forensic proof that it did. So, we’re left with the testimony of the victim and an assessment of why she would make these accusations if they are untrue. It is a difficult topic and I’ll be interested to hear what you think after you read the book.
I disagree wholeheartedly- anyone can write a book and that’s the deciding factor whether or not we believe them because they went public?
You cannot prove a negative.
Yes,for why?
I haven't read the book, but I am aware of the story and the articles. I do remember the publicity when the book came out, with all the celebrities and high profile NYT story, which is unusual for both a 'normie', and for a sexual abuse story.
I can understand why the ghostwriter may not have gone into detail about Amy's wealth and lifestyle, though, given that Belle Burden DID go into detail and it still wasn't quite enough for some people, and the subsequent 'can you really feel sorry for a rich woman' discourse. I know publication dates would probably indicate no coincidence in timing, but I can see a writer thinking that people would not be as sympathetic if they got the full view of her lifestyle.
The red flag in this is Oprah Winfrey.
When I read about all that lying, accusing and distorting, I feel seduced to state that
the math teacher at Riverdale Country School who didn´t deny the accusation, stands
out as a light amidst all the darkness of all those „normal“ „successful“ people.
In Germany - I don´t know about US or other countries - we have projects of Universities,
hospitals/treatment centres for mental disorders a.o. who established and provided Prevention Services for individuals who experience sexual attraction toward children and adolescents, and for the years I worked there as a therapist, the demand was consistently immense.
This demonstrates at least two things: first, that a significant number of people with pedophilic attractions—who are no more responsible for their sexual feelings than anyone else, and who "did not choose“ it just as hetero- or homosexuals did not „choose“ their sexuality—are fully aware that acting on their sexuality causes serious harm to others; and second, that this is by no means a "marginal phenomenon" but is actually *very* widespread.
Therefore, suppression and punishment (at least not solely/alone) are not viable options—they only as a result harm the children possibly involved—nor is "keeping children away from sexuality and sex education"; on the contrary, their awareness needs to be sharpened and developed, and they must not be left to deal with these matters alone.
Tell THAT to "MAGA" ...!
It is common knowledge not only among people who have own children that children ask questions about all sorts of things, including sexuality—usually without even knowing what it is.
My own children began asking on this even before they were three.
We must not strip them of this unselfconscious openness; instead, we should try to provide appropriate answers based on the child's lead—not the adult’s.
It is very essential especially for victims to always have the trust to turn to an adult, preferably of course their parents !, when „something happens“. If children get the feeling they „should not talk about these things“, this is an advantage for misusers.
Those who sought help through these prevention programs—protected by anonymity—came from all walks of life and age groups; about a third were women—dispelling the persistent myth that "only men do such things“.
For years, I worked as an expert evaluator and therapist with offenders and violent criminals, and later with many "abused" children and adolescents as well; after all, it is crucial to know and understand "both sides" of the issue.
In the case of the children, they often did not appear "disturbed"; instead, they would frequently talk incessantly and confide in me with guileless trust. They often felt a need to make up for lost time of no-talking, as they evidently lacked a trusting relationship with their parents.
The children who were best able to process and overcome their experiences were, almost without exception, those who possessed a healthy sense of their own bodies and were "sexually informed."
For children from whom topics regarding sexuality had been withheld—or even strictly forbidden—it was almost always very difficult to confront and process these issues. They didn´t even have words for „that“ !
Many were simply unable to cope with it, but the cause for that laid prior to the criminal act.
And not infrequently, I witnessed situations where even the act itself was not the worst part for the children; rather, it was the way "adults" reacted—often hysterically, inappropriately, and excessively—while paying little or no heed to the children, who needed calm, understanding, and care in that situation.
Almost invariably, these were "adults" who themselves struggled with (significant) issues regarding sexuality.
It is high time to bring this subject out of the realm of hysteria and darkness. Darkness is where violent offenders and blackmailers find it easiest to operate.
If someone is an alcoholic, they must learn to manage the condition to avoid harming themselves; likewise, if someone has pedophilic urges, they must learn to manage them to avoid harming others.
Repression and condemnation do nothing to help (potential) victims.
There is a robust literature on the dubious nature of recovered memories, and the possibility of suddenly remembering abuse that happened repeatedly from 12 to 16 seems pretty unlikely to me. In this case I ask, what about the cruelty of believing a very credibly innocent person has committed a terrible crime?
One of the flaws of the book was making the recovery overly dramatic and overly “out of thin air” for the sake of drama. In the interview with NYMag, Amy talks about that. Also, in the book she recalls wanting to talk about the abuse to a college friend.
Couldn't she say NO. Or would her grades have dropped?
Sylvia Plath accused her father and later researchers who painstakingly checked times and dates and places showed she made it all up. And she accused her mother of being abusive because she cared about his she dressed and got her schoolwork done. God knows what she'd have made of cooking the evening meal or cleaning the house at 10 years old. As just part of normal. Entitled princess didn't know she was born.
I've been withholding any judgement for exactly the reasons you state. Belief is the least we can give her; I'll add my empathy.
Thank you, David, for uplifting the need to "believe Survivors". I am a survivor, a trauma therapist and a circle keeper for restorative/transformative justice. I have worked with thousands of survivors and perpetrators who themselves are usually survivors.
I have never met someone who made up a story of abuse. I repeat, I have never met a survivor who I believed was lying. I have been involved in situations where a parent accuses another parent of abusing their children in the midst of a custody battle and its found that the accusing parent had fabricated the story.
A deep dive into the repressed/recovered memory literature and movement including the identification of "false memory syndrome" illuminates very complex psychological and cultural issues at play that made this controversy highly emotional for many.
I am not saying that no one is falsely accused (NSVRC cites an article that found over the course of a 10 yr period, 2%-10% of sexual assaults studied were considered "false allegations"). The incidents are considered "low".
I am saying that disclosing abuse is most often an extremely traumatizing experience and most of us do everything we can to avoid it unless/until we can no longer survive. According to the NIH, between 30-40% of survivors of childhood sexual abuse attempt suicide. The pain of living with the sequela of PTSD can be unbearable.
Trauma recovery is often marked by a stage called Post-traumatic growth. This is a time in recovery where survivors look for ways to make meaning out of the violence they experienced. Survivors might start a foundation, engage in activism to support survivors or keep people safe from sexual violence, write about their experience to help other survivors or warn people about risks of sexual assault. This work is often met with resistance from their community, their family and maybe even their employer.
The costs are so high when one talks openly about sexual assault and we know that. That is precisely why so many of us never tell our stories.
Thank you, David, and thank you, Amy.
Thank you Joy for your comment from a position of personal and professional experience. I can only imagine the trauma of disclosing abuse like Amy suffered.