Thank you, David! You’ve given me some ideas. I dated some wealthy men in my early 20s. I wish I had been more like Undine. Instead, I felt used and abused. And seeing the men in my own family and class, I decided never to date another wealthy man ever again.
Well, that second piece has aged beautifully…where, indeed, are our codes? I agree it comes down to people having the courage to shun those who behave poorly. But money seems to have become so important in our culture as a mark of status that so long as you have enough, alls forgiven. I wonder if the Epstein release will move us towards better behavior, if only because it causes people (men, sorry) to ask: “what if someday my actions end up in a doc?” That feels like a flimsy social enforcement mechanism, though. I wish upstanding behavior were innate and it’d ironic that people who lean so well how to pull the levers of the system don’t do so alongside an inner moral landscape—ultimately, just another system you can learn and play. I wonder why Me Too was, ultimately, so ineffective. Maybe because you can’t impose moral codes. They have to come from some deeper inner place—which is also built and reinforced by society. Glad you’re a voice holding the shape of a healthy, respectful society.
Thanks Isabel for the comment. It made me think that perhaps the p[erson most able to enforce a moral code is whoever is in charge of the NYT obituary section. What if the lede of every obituary was about the person's ethical record and then material achievements were given short shrift?
“If there still exists a world of old money with its exacting standards of behavior and disdain for commerce, I’m either not aware of it or have been excluded from its precincts. Good and bad taste, good and bad manners can be found all over.” — yes, and I love this essay and the exercise of imagining Undine today. Bravo as ever. X
I commend you for your willingness to discuss the moral consequences of the sad, entitlement-driven, hedonistic behavior that has become so common among your peers. But, David, you go a step further by signing your name to your words. That’s the exact kind of courage we need. Thank you for championing the dignity and grace of the women in your life—especially your granddaughters who need this now as they form the foundation of their strong and healthy lives.
For some reason after reading this my mind made a brief connection to Flannery O'Connor's concept of "manners" and "mystery" as a roadmap to how fiction abstracts from life.
"Manners" are social, observable expressions of an individual's code of ethics. They constitute a body of behavior that reveals character in the context of culture. "Mystery" is deeply individual, representing the unseen spirit and inner life of a person.
Somehow, as a culture we have accepted poor manners and the profane as appropriate to anyone who can buy his or her way to the top. It kind of makes me sad. Kudos to you for holding to a code that exhibits the best of both personal mystery and public manners.
Thanks Martina. I wasn't familiar with that concept. The corruption of laws and manners and language is so brazen today. It feels like we have not only stopped progress but reversed it. Perhaps you have inspired my next post!
Thanks for speaking out against Bill Clinton's morally decrepit behavior. Still able to walk about, head held eye in Democratic Socialist high society after having despoiled a young woman's reputation for life.
I love this, David. Thank you for reposting it. We need more men (all men!) to stand up to the culture of treating young women like objects to possess and against rape culture (all sex with underage girls is rape of course).
Dear Mr Roberts,my attitude about the super rich has never changed. For me,they don't exist. I hear about them of course and if I watch old movies like High Society I see them depicted in an age when they,some of them,still had grace and charm to hide those financial killer instincts. But to me they are flickering shadows on the wall. Now is this highly disrespectful to you that I dont see you,or Debbie as those super rich because you seem so 'normal' just like people I know. Or have known. Am I disrespectful? If so I apologize. But I think both you and Debbie get it just right and you're both in a good place to guide your kids,well you have as they are adults,the grandkids. At the start of March to mark my birthday (71!) I went up to London. I went to an evening talk at the Victoria + Albert Museum and the subject was one of those Dollar Princesses who married into the stony broke British Aristocracy. We had the titles and Stately Homes but no money. The American families had the money but,lol,not the class! This particular young lady was before she married the Earl of Sandwich 🥪,it's a real title.,she was Alberta Sturgess of Chicago. But it was a love match and her parents didn't force her into it unlike her less lucky friend Consuela Vanderbilt. The giver of the talk is a total STAR in her own right. Her name is Julie Montagu - from Chicago! Her husband of 20 years is Luke Montagu,the current Earl of Sandwich. When COVID put a stop to the meagre dribble of visitors to their modest but charming stately home in remotest Dorset Julie and Luke who both had media training in their backgrounds set up a YouTube channel. It was just to keep the name of Mapperton,out there but in quick time they had got a tsunami of followers and from an income of a few hundred from actual visitors,which is why when they started Mapperton House was full of buckets catching leaks,now they are making dosh hand over fist because they are genuine people,they have something people love and admire and Julie is a STAR. She IS the American from Central Casting. Im not being cynical. She is everything good of how we see Americans and she is funny. When she decided to study the life of her husband's Great grandmother who she'd been told was American like her ,she found out all about Alberta and she has even won awards for her research. So I saw Julie in person do her talk about Alberta which was my treat to myself. I visited Mapperton,but the gardens only,last summer. Mapperton Live is the YouTube channel. Now here is a book recommendation. The Spoils of Poynton by Henry James. I think James was actually challenged to write a novel in which NOTHING actually happens. It so brings to life circa 1910 life in that class. People who went hunting Renaissance art in Italy. And nouveau riche who were too,too dreadful. It's a good read but very frustrating because each time Freda who is a bit of a drip gets a chance to snare the guy she lets it pass,but he's no prize really. But she's so drippy. The guy is engaged to a nouveau riche bridezilla who his Mother loathes and at first you feel that the author is on the side of wispy ethereal Freda but as the story progresses you get to feel that actually the author quite admires bossy,autocratic,dreadful but knows her mind Bridezilla and she'll keep her rather oafish boorish husband in his place! I read this book as the surname Poynton is in my family,not the right reason,it's a good read but also frustrating because NOTHING EVER HAPPENS and I'm sure I read that James did write it in response to a challenge!
Jane, Your comment was a a pleasure to read as always. I'm not familiar with that novel of James. I'll check it out. And it's nice to hear about the "Sandwiches" and success coming to good people.
David, Don't you think that Wharton in _Age of Innocence_ gives those same qualities of force that Undine has to Countess Olenska? Also a terrific film directed by the so original Martin Scorsese.
Hi Mary. Age of Innocence is one of the best movie adaptations of a truly great book. I think compared to Undine, Wharton made the Countess more introspective and therefore more hesitant and less of a force of nature than Undine who is all surface. Thanks for making me think!
Culture writing is not my thing at all, but I think there's a *ton* to be said about the choice of Sweeney as Undine, between what Sweeney represents in contemporary American imagination and what Undine represented in Wharton's world. (No aspersions whatsoever! But she's a notable departure from the description, as you note.)
Thanks for the comment Debra. Fair point.
I will re-read it. I’m sure I missed the point entirely.
"There’s a resilience you probably only get from confronting scarcity and defeating it." Too true.
Thank you, David! You’ve given me some ideas. I dated some wealthy men in my early 20s. I wish I had been more like Undine. Instead, I felt used and abused. And seeing the men in my own family and class, I decided never to date another wealthy man ever again.
Discovered you because of that article, looking forward to reading more from you.
If only all wealthy individuals were like you!
Well, that second piece has aged beautifully…where, indeed, are our codes? I agree it comes down to people having the courage to shun those who behave poorly. But money seems to have become so important in our culture as a mark of status that so long as you have enough, alls forgiven. I wonder if the Epstein release will move us towards better behavior, if only because it causes people (men, sorry) to ask: “what if someday my actions end up in a doc?” That feels like a flimsy social enforcement mechanism, though. I wish upstanding behavior were innate and it’d ironic that people who lean so well how to pull the levers of the system don’t do so alongside an inner moral landscape—ultimately, just another system you can learn and play. I wonder why Me Too was, ultimately, so ineffective. Maybe because you can’t impose moral codes. They have to come from some deeper inner place—which is also built and reinforced by society. Glad you’re a voice holding the shape of a healthy, respectful society.
Thanks Isabel for the comment. It made me think that perhaps the p[erson most able to enforce a moral code is whoever is in charge of the NYT obituary section. What if the lede of every obituary was about the person's ethical record and then material achievements were given short shrift?
“If there still exists a world of old money with its exacting standards of behavior and disdain for commerce, I’m either not aware of it or have been excluded from its precincts. Good and bad taste, good and bad manners can be found all over.” — yes, and I love this essay and the exercise of imagining Undine today. Bravo as ever. X
Thanks Maya!
I commend you for your willingness to discuss the moral consequences of the sad, entitlement-driven, hedonistic behavior that has become so common among your peers. But, David, you go a step further by signing your name to your words. That’s the exact kind of courage we need. Thank you for championing the dignity and grace of the women in your life—especially your granddaughters who need this now as they form the foundation of their strong and healthy lives.
Thanks Ann. My granddaughters have good role models in their mothers and in their fathers for which my wife and I are very grateful.
For some reason after reading this my mind made a brief connection to Flannery O'Connor's concept of "manners" and "mystery" as a roadmap to how fiction abstracts from life.
"Manners" are social, observable expressions of an individual's code of ethics. They constitute a body of behavior that reveals character in the context of culture. "Mystery" is deeply individual, representing the unseen spirit and inner life of a person.
Somehow, as a culture we have accepted poor manners and the profane as appropriate to anyone who can buy his or her way to the top. It kind of makes me sad. Kudos to you for holding to a code that exhibits the best of both personal mystery and public manners.
Thanks Martina. I wasn't familiar with that concept. The corruption of laws and manners and language is so brazen today. It feels like we have not only stopped progress but reversed it. Perhaps you have inspired my next post!
Thanks for speaking out against Bill Clinton's morally decrepit behavior. Still able to walk about, head held eye in Democratic Socialist high society after having despoiled a young woman's reputation for life.
I love this, David. Thank you for reposting it. We need more men (all men!) to stand up to the culture of treating young women like objects to possess and against rape culture (all sex with underage girls is rape of course).
Dear Mr Roberts,my attitude about the super rich has never changed. For me,they don't exist. I hear about them of course and if I watch old movies like High Society I see them depicted in an age when they,some of them,still had grace and charm to hide those financial killer instincts. But to me they are flickering shadows on the wall. Now is this highly disrespectful to you that I dont see you,or Debbie as those super rich because you seem so 'normal' just like people I know. Or have known. Am I disrespectful? If so I apologize. But I think both you and Debbie get it just right and you're both in a good place to guide your kids,well you have as they are adults,the grandkids. At the start of March to mark my birthday (71!) I went up to London. I went to an evening talk at the Victoria + Albert Museum and the subject was one of those Dollar Princesses who married into the stony broke British Aristocracy. We had the titles and Stately Homes but no money. The American families had the money but,lol,not the class! This particular young lady was before she married the Earl of Sandwich 🥪,it's a real title.,she was Alberta Sturgess of Chicago. But it was a love match and her parents didn't force her into it unlike her less lucky friend Consuela Vanderbilt. The giver of the talk is a total STAR in her own right. Her name is Julie Montagu - from Chicago! Her husband of 20 years is Luke Montagu,the current Earl of Sandwich. When COVID put a stop to the meagre dribble of visitors to their modest but charming stately home in remotest Dorset Julie and Luke who both had media training in their backgrounds set up a YouTube channel. It was just to keep the name of Mapperton,out there but in quick time they had got a tsunami of followers and from an income of a few hundred from actual visitors,which is why when they started Mapperton House was full of buckets catching leaks,now they are making dosh hand over fist because they are genuine people,they have something people love and admire and Julie is a STAR. She IS the American from Central Casting. Im not being cynical. She is everything good of how we see Americans and she is funny. When she decided to study the life of her husband's Great grandmother who she'd been told was American like her ,she found out all about Alberta and she has even won awards for her research. So I saw Julie in person do her talk about Alberta which was my treat to myself. I visited Mapperton,but the gardens only,last summer. Mapperton Live is the YouTube channel. Now here is a book recommendation. The Spoils of Poynton by Henry James. I think James was actually challenged to write a novel in which NOTHING actually happens. It so brings to life circa 1910 life in that class. People who went hunting Renaissance art in Italy. And nouveau riche who were too,too dreadful. It's a good read but very frustrating because each time Freda who is a bit of a drip gets a chance to snare the guy she lets it pass,but he's no prize really. But she's so drippy. The guy is engaged to a nouveau riche bridezilla who his Mother loathes and at first you feel that the author is on the side of wispy ethereal Freda but as the story progresses you get to feel that actually the author quite admires bossy,autocratic,dreadful but knows her mind Bridezilla and she'll keep her rather oafish boorish husband in his place! I read this book as the surname Poynton is in my family,not the right reason,it's a good read but also frustrating because NOTHING EVER HAPPENS and I'm sure I read that James did write it in response to a challenge!
Jane, Your comment was a a pleasure to read as always. I'm not familiar with that novel of James. I'll check it out. And it's nice to hear about the "Sandwiches" and success coming to good people.
David, Don't you think that Wharton in _Age of Innocence_ gives those same qualities of force that Undine has to Countess Olenska? Also a terrific film directed by the so original Martin Scorsese.
Hi Mary. Age of Innocence is one of the best movie adaptations of a truly great book. I think compared to Undine, Wharton made the Countess more introspective and therefore more hesitant and less of a force of nature than Undine who is all surface. Thanks for making me think!
I was featured in New York Magazine about a goose murder.
I mean… not to one up or anything…
Good job in getting that story quashed!
not quite…. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/who-killed-andy-the-footless-goose-gene-fleming.html
Now I’m really sad!
Don’t be, its pure comedy in my warped world:)
I feel for the goose!
Ya… most do. I had a complicated relationship with it.
Congrats on being featured in the NY Mag! A testiment to your dedication to this very important topic.
Culture writing is not my thing at all, but I think there's a *ton* to be said about the choice of Sweeney as Undine, between what Sweeney represents in contemporary American imagination and what Undine represented in Wharton's world. (No aspersions whatsoever! But she's a notable departure from the description, as you note.)
Felice, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I think she could be a good choice despite not matching the description. Thanks for the comment.