Question for the comments: Are we hard-wired to be vain or is vanity a function of our appearance-obsessed culture?
I find a vanity-difference between Debbie and me in how we handle comments about our appearance. I will believe anyone, most importantly Debbie, who calls me handsome. In fact I will endow them on the spot with great aesthetic powers.
If, however, I call Debbie beautiful she will sometimes dispute me. She is I believe far more self-critical and was so especially when she was younger. Once, standing in front of of a mirror, she asked me the devious question of "Have I always been this ugly" to which there was obviously no "right" answer.
Perhaps that is a general difference between men and women.
I would bet that women are much more judgmental on themselves than men are or even other women. I am sure there are whole theses on this. I also think if we can't agree as a society that social media has hyperinflated "appearance" to a detrimental effect, then we might be doomed as a society.
I agree about that hyperinflation. I remember a few months ago there were pictures of Sydney Sweeney without makeup, lighting, etc. and people were very critical and disappointed that she looked like a "normal" beauty.
This was fun. Btw, Winona Rider is my husband’s hall pass. He told me that after “Night On Earth,” Jim Jarmusch’s brilliant film of five taxi rides in different cities. She’s a taxi driver, so whip-smart and funny.
Vanity is absolutely a function of our appearance-obsessed culture, which treats women far more harshly than men. Although, it’s been interesting these recent years to see how social media has infected men as well.
Even as a teen, I was turned off by pretty boys who knew they were pretty. I prefer my handsome men to be unselfconscious and casual about their looks (like my husband ~!).
Thanks for the tip about “Juliet, Naked.” It looks charming.
Fun post! On the before and after photos of the guy…putting aside all considerations of appearance, including how he might think he looks, I imagine living in the “after” body just feels better than living in the “before” body. Stronger, more energy, better stamina on long hikes, etc. I’m agnostic on which looks better. But I have an opinion about what I imagine feels better.
In general, I find that women are tougher on themselves about their appearance than men. I imagine this comes from the cultural conditioning of being judged as worthy based on appearance. Men gain status from good looks. Women are judged as having value to society (or not!) based on looks. I imagine it’s quite the mind-fuck for women.
Dan, I think women are judged more harshly. As so many things change about traditional roles, I wonder of this too will change. Unfortunately it may change by making men as self-conscious as women.
Yes, I think we're seeing some of that happening already. The Rom-Com Sleepless in Seattle captured some of this transition happening as Tom Hanks enters the dating scene and Rob Reiner informs him that it's "different these days" and it's important to have a good butt. Hanks has no idea what a "good butt" is and asks Rob Reiner to let him know if he's got one.
You may be wrong about the comparative health and strength of the before and after guy. The after guy has almost certainly used a lot of steroid drugs as well as exercise in order to develop that body shape and he may well collapse and die and also be unable (but probably unwilling anyway) to do simple physical tasks like erect a garden shed,a fence,a curtain pole over a high window. He wont be able or competent to do those million things a woman really admires in a man,about the house. This body building drugs give men the he-man shape but take away the ability to erect anything.
I suppose that's true. It's hard to know how "after guy" came by his cartoonish physique. I've seen a few guys at yoga classes with that kind of muscle definition (okay, maybe not quite that exaggerated, but pretty close) who had great flexibility and balance too. Lots of super strong women too. So I think it's at least possible to have something like that sort of body and do all the things you talk about. And as someone who didn't do any resistance training until age 50 (I'm 63) it has felt better to be stronger rather than weaker. Luckily, I'm nowhere near to discovering the perils of overdoing it. :-)
I like the before image as well. The guy is fit but not obsessively so. Now that my husband is retired, he is in the best shape of his life (at 64) but from hours of doing something he loves (cycling) and some strength and core to round that out. I love that he is taking care of his health but not doing it just to look good. It’s harder for women to stay fit. Our hormones work against us.. but I am not giving up! We have a 14 month old granddaughter to keep up with (and hopefully more to come) Great essay! I really love this stage of life.
Sharing with my husband of 39 years. He’s almost completely grey at 65. I am still coloring my hair. After all, I am not as old as he is. I’m only 63. 😝 Thanks for providing some humor this morning. 🤗🤗🤗
Comparison is the thief of joy. And women are self critical about their appearance because we are bathed in criticism every day in every way. Too fat, too thin too muscular too flabby too much. The cosmetics industry depends on negative emotional ploys telling us we can be improved if we trim pluck brush gloss hydrate. We are sold anti-aging as if that’s possible. We are expected to snap back to pre baby body in 6 weeks or baby daddy leaves so now we need revenge body. We ruin our hair dying perming bayalage extensions wigs. We pluck eyebrows, tattoo eyeliner add lash extensions. So no the need to compare is not the same for men and women. Ugly old fat (rich) men “get” beautiful women (because beauty is the prize). My god I could write a tome on this topic but it’s been done before and by better writers.
But you only have to read authors like Charles Dickens or Thackeray (and others) to see that past ages were equally judgmental and unkind about female looks. It's not such a 20th century Hollywood derived thing as we think. For a more sympathetic take on female appearance read Anthony Trollope. He liked spinsters,and he even portrayed ugly ones with a smidgen of good humoured sympathy!
at 73, and in his new hip Parisian jacket (and after 52 years of marriage), my sweetie is still pretty cute (aka attractive); isn’t the passage of time in a long relationship fascinating?! thanks David for this fun post. (P.S. I like the more natural looking guy on the left)
Until middle age, I didn’t meet my exacting standards for beauty. Some part of me was always short of the mark. In my 50s I acquired a glow of confidence that burnished my physical self, and I had learned how to dress with a flourish that was mine. It seemed I was among the more attractive people in the room. I remember those years with pleasure, now that I have crumpled a bit. I still have the flourish, though. I’ll have it my 90s, if I’m still around.
Rona ! One of few (obviously David ) I read asap. I had looks. Not as a child. Grew into them. Successfully yet never felt until late 50’s. Now 74 . Husband: Jenn you getting better looking as you age ?” Me: “ What did I look like before 😂”
I love this! Being pretty might come more easily when you’re young but it also feels imitable. Coolness and confidence are rarer, harder to replicate, and can only be bestowed with time (and the wisdom it brings if you take the time to know yourself). But to David’s point about aging making a mockery of vanity, I get the idea and certainly think it will be a humbling experience but I also sometimes think the idea of aging as a great equalizer is flawed because we can still distinguish beauty with age and sometimes I think it feels insulting to older folks to think otherwise? A beautiful young person or someone who puts care into their appearance and health will likely carry that as they age, so the playing field is never quite level.
Certainly people age at different speeds and with differing effects on how they carry themselves and how they appear. I think the line was above all a warning to myself.
You are totally correct. Age is no leveler as regards physical beauty and lack of confidence and social ineptitude show up more. A graceless young person can be allowed some charitable leeway. A graceless old person none.
Ethan Hawke featured heavily in conversation this week. A friend and I both watched reality bites again a couple nights ago. I think more women than men are sapiosexual first and foremost and we can literally see the brains in the looks. It’s evolutionary. We are attracted to traits in the other that will ensure the success of our genes. I wonder what looks are for after a certain age…perhaps for the fun, beauty, and challenge of it. because human bodies are capable of so much more than we realize when we apply our minds. the brain is the first zone of attraction, in my opinion. we can sense someone’s mind by how they behave, their vibes. as for the difference between brain and mind…for another post, perhaps something to do with individual versus universal
I think in an ideal family set up (which of course is rarer these days) grandchildren learn a lot from wise and experienced grandparents even more so in the pre-adult years so grandparents who are and have been attractive people are going to have a much wider field of experience from which to guide, advise and even entertain the young ones.
Bald is a great look. Even for a rare few women! They say if you go bald around the forehead it means you think ,if you go bald at the back of the head it means youre sexy,if you go bald all over it means you think you're sexy! Sorry couldnt resist old joke
Oh David ! Ego? Crushed yam I. Not included in your fav reads. Shame on you. I’m one of 6 girls born. Raised . Bev Hills CA. Grad Marymount High school. Competition??!! I was auburn hair. Resplendently freckled amongst tanned, blond beauties. Never felt my ID. I did develop a long , thin figure. Not curvy. Not busty or thick in the arse. Bikini material. Burned holes in my husband’s eyes some 4 decades ago. Speaking of men and hall pass. Cillian Murphy. Polar opposite my husband who’s tall, used to be dark and still hairy! Or Eddie Redmayne. Planted a kiss on my blushing cheeks after a celebration of a treasured friend’s life in nyc years ago. Daniel Day Lewis . Redmayne , other actors eulogized.Daniel’s last stage appearance .You compared in this post. You beat in looks ! Not acting.
This was such a grin. The pix! Wonderful. I met my ex-husband three times before I noticed he was terribly handsome —and looked like Christopher Reeve 😂 As to vanity… yes, hardwired from culture, but also having had full facial recon at 45, I yearn for my “before” face—the set of my jaw, the shape of my eyes. Not that they didn’t try. But that’s who I knew for so long. My hall pass… I don’t have one, after working in Hollywood. Maybe Skarsgard for pure brooding fire. It’s more about love and a kind of tender curiosity. Rare these days.
I think so far I am the youngest commenter, about to turn 52 next week. I don't know how it happened organically, but my blond colored hair got to a point where it seemed that I had to decide. Grow it out and stop coloring it or get back to it. I didn't make a conscious decision. Maybe procrastination was my friend for once. My hairdresser had kept telling me my gray was coming in. I thought hell no, I am 50. Well I am now all natural. My husband commented one day when I was saying how dark my natural hair is, with highlights of sort of gray. And his comment. I love it like that, much better than blond. I almost died and then thought I was going to punch him! He never said a word about my hair for 25 years (except when I cut it short). And here he was telling me the darker, gray infused was lovely. Who knew! I guess I thought all men wanted a blond. Or maybe I am growing into my more mature self and that suits this period of my life. I do know he prefers a more natural and less fussy way of life. So maybe that is why he likes the brunette I am. His doppleganger is Kevin Costner and me, Jamie Lee Curtis. Fun post today. And as far as before and after, the problem with the after, he probably says no to a lot of life, including his partner! The rigidity that takes is great maybe for the person being rigid in their routines, but who wants to live with all the devotion that takes at the expense of being in the moment.
I'm a dark haired brunette person,or I was. My sister has been blonde all her life. Her natural hair colour after early childhood was that sort of light brownish almost blonde colour so from the age of 20 my sister coloured her hair and has always been blonde (and beautiful) then two years ago money was tight so she had to pass on her regular hair salon visit to get her roots done. A week or so later my sister noticed - no darker roots! She let her hair grow out and - miracle- it is now naturally that lovely white silver blonde, the expensive looking kind,it just grows like that ,and it's not costing her a penny! Me,when my hair started to lose its dark pigment I knew I wasn't ready for grey so I coloured it. After the first couple of tries I found my "look". I'm now purple with a green fringe and I want to add dashes of blue. It sounds bizarre but some how it works and everyone around me sees it as 'me' more than when I was my natural colour. Maybe the fact it's bizarre says something about ME.
“And when I look at Debbie I see both the girl I first met and the woman she’s become. That combination makes me feel an affection that runs so deep I would have thought it impossible if I didn’t feel it so often.”
This was beautiful, David!
To feel this kind of deep, long-standing affection is to recognize the often overlooked but crucial role of time. It shapes our preferences, turning fleeting attraction into something so fundamental that the person becomes our very definition of beauty. I think, as a culture, we’ve come to undervalue time—and how the people who stay at our table, so to speak, shape our preferences until they become loyalties. Eventually, it becomes impossible to separate what we find attractive from who they are.
To answer your question: I think where vanity was once more about attracting a mate, it’s now become increasingly commodified and transformed into a marker of status. That makes it harder for people to loosen its grip, even when they’re partnered, even if they don’t quite know what or why they’re striving toward some elusive ideal.
Also, I completely understand Debbie’s Ethan Hawke, effortlessly cool thing. I wonder if the Before Trilogy films played a role in igniting that?!
Question for the comments: Are we hard-wired to be vain or is vanity a function of our appearance-obsessed culture?
I find a vanity-difference between Debbie and me in how we handle comments about our appearance. I will believe anyone, most importantly Debbie, who calls me handsome. In fact I will endow them on the spot with great aesthetic powers.
If, however, I call Debbie beautiful she will sometimes dispute me. She is I believe far more self-critical and was so especially when she was younger. Once, standing in front of of a mirror, she asked me the devious question of "Have I always been this ugly" to which there was obviously no "right" answer.
Perhaps that is a general difference between men and women.
I would bet that women are much more judgmental on themselves than men are or even other women. I am sure there are whole theses on this. I also think if we can't agree as a society that social media has hyperinflated "appearance" to a detrimental effect, then we might be doomed as a society.
I agree about that hyperinflation. I remember a few months ago there were pictures of Sydney Sweeney without makeup, lighting, etc. and people were very critical and disappointed that she looked like a "normal" beauty.
This was fun. Btw, Winona Rider is my husband’s hall pass. He told me that after “Night On Earth,” Jim Jarmusch’s brilliant film of five taxi rides in different cities. She’s a taxi driver, so whip-smart and funny.
Vanity is absolutely a function of our appearance-obsessed culture, which treats women far more harshly than men. Although, it’s been interesting these recent years to see how social media has infected men as well.
Even as a teen, I was turned off by pretty boys who knew they were pretty. I prefer my handsome men to be unselfconscious and casual about their looks (like my husband ~!).
Thanks for the tip about “Juliet, Naked.” It looks charming.
Thanks Julie. The movie will not challenge you but the actors are fun to watch. We're all infected!
Fun post! On the before and after photos of the guy…putting aside all considerations of appearance, including how he might think he looks, I imagine living in the “after” body just feels better than living in the “before” body. Stronger, more energy, better stamina on long hikes, etc. I’m agnostic on which looks better. But I have an opinion about what I imagine feels better.
In general, I find that women are tougher on themselves about their appearance than men. I imagine this comes from the cultural conditioning of being judged as worthy based on appearance. Men gain status from good looks. Women are judged as having value to society (or not!) based on looks. I imagine it’s quite the mind-fuck for women.
Dan, I think women are judged more harshly. As so many things change about traditional roles, I wonder of this too will change. Unfortunately it may change by making men as self-conscious as women.
Yes, I think we're seeing some of that happening already. The Rom-Com Sleepless in Seattle captured some of this transition happening as Tom Hanks enters the dating scene and Rob Reiner informs him that it's "different these days" and it's important to have a good butt. Hanks has no idea what a "good butt" is and asks Rob Reiner to let him know if he's got one.
You may be wrong about the comparative health and strength of the before and after guy. The after guy has almost certainly used a lot of steroid drugs as well as exercise in order to develop that body shape and he may well collapse and die and also be unable (but probably unwilling anyway) to do simple physical tasks like erect a garden shed,a fence,a curtain pole over a high window. He wont be able or competent to do those million things a woman really admires in a man,about the house. This body building drugs give men the he-man shape but take away the ability to erect anything.
I suppose that's true. It's hard to know how "after guy" came by his cartoonish physique. I've seen a few guys at yoga classes with that kind of muscle definition (okay, maybe not quite that exaggerated, but pretty close) who had great flexibility and balance too. Lots of super strong women too. So I think it's at least possible to have something like that sort of body and do all the things you talk about. And as someone who didn't do any resistance training until age 50 (I'm 63) it has felt better to be stronger rather than weaker. Luckily, I'm nowhere near to discovering the perils of overdoing it. :-)
I like the before image as well. The guy is fit but not obsessively so. Now that my husband is retired, he is in the best shape of his life (at 64) but from hours of doing something he loves (cycling) and some strength and core to round that out. I love that he is taking care of his health but not doing it just to look good. It’s harder for women to stay fit. Our hormones work against us.. but I am not giving up! We have a 14 month old granddaughter to keep up with (and hopefully more to come) Great essay! I really love this stage of life.
Grandkids definitely give you an extra incentive!
Sharing with my husband of 39 years. He’s almost completely grey at 65. I am still coloring my hair. After all, I am not as old as he is. I’m only 63. 😝 Thanks for providing some humor this morning. 🤗🤗🤗
Comparison is the thief of joy. And women are self critical about their appearance because we are bathed in criticism every day in every way. Too fat, too thin too muscular too flabby too much. The cosmetics industry depends on negative emotional ploys telling us we can be improved if we trim pluck brush gloss hydrate. We are sold anti-aging as if that’s possible. We are expected to snap back to pre baby body in 6 weeks or baby daddy leaves so now we need revenge body. We ruin our hair dying perming bayalage extensions wigs. We pluck eyebrows, tattoo eyeliner add lash extensions. So no the need to compare is not the same for men and women. Ugly old fat (rich) men “get” beautiful women (because beauty is the prize). My god I could write a tome on this topic but it’s been done before and by better writers.
I feel exhausted just reading this! I have to go look at my eyebrows. It is a full time job! The struggle is real.
Ellen, I've seen the pictures of Bill Bellichick and his 24 year old girlfriend!
But you only have to read authors like Charles Dickens or Thackeray (and others) to see that past ages were equally judgmental and unkind about female looks. It's not such a 20th century Hollywood derived thing as we think. For a more sympathetic take on female appearance read Anthony Trollope. He liked spinsters,and he even portrayed ugly ones with a smidgen of good humoured sympathy!
at 73, and in his new hip Parisian jacket (and after 52 years of marriage), my sweetie is still pretty cute (aka attractive); isn’t the passage of time in a long relationship fascinating?! thanks David for this fun post. (P.S. I like the more natural looking guy on the left)
Thanks Debbie!
The blonde comment for Debbie. I get that! It's the opposite for me when my husband would mention a blonde since I am a brunette. Funny but true
Until middle age, I didn’t meet my exacting standards for beauty. Some part of me was always short of the mark. In my 50s I acquired a glow of confidence that burnished my physical self, and I had learned how to dress with a flourish that was mine. It seemed I was among the more attractive people in the room. I remember those years with pleasure, now that I have crumpled a bit. I still have the flourish, though. I’ll have it my 90s, if I’m still around.
Rona ! One of few (obviously David ) I read asap. I had looks. Not as a child. Grew into them. Successfully yet never felt until late 50’s. Now 74 . Husband: Jenn you getting better looking as you age ?” Me: “ What did I look like before 😂”
Humor counts more than looks in married life.
Rona. If not for my sense of humour, quick wit and bravado I’d not been able to overcome the rest.
Rona,
Good point about the "flourish" and confidence. How one walks into a room says a lot.
I love this! Being pretty might come more easily when you’re young but it also feels imitable. Coolness and confidence are rarer, harder to replicate, and can only be bestowed with time (and the wisdom it brings if you take the time to know yourself). But to David’s point about aging making a mockery of vanity, I get the idea and certainly think it will be a humbling experience but I also sometimes think the idea of aging as a great equalizer is flawed because we can still distinguish beauty with age and sometimes I think it feels insulting to older folks to think otherwise? A beautiful young person or someone who puts care into their appearance and health will likely carry that as they age, so the playing field is never quite level.
Hi Sophie,
Certainly people age at different speeds and with differing effects on how they carry themselves and how they appear. I think the line was above all a warning to myself.
You will be golden!!
You are totally correct. Age is no leveler as regards physical beauty and lack of confidence and social ineptitude show up more. A graceless young person can be allowed some charitable leeway. A graceless old person none.
Ethan Hawke featured heavily in conversation this week. A friend and I both watched reality bites again a couple nights ago. I think more women than men are sapiosexual first and foremost and we can literally see the brains in the looks. It’s evolutionary. We are attracted to traits in the other that will ensure the success of our genes. I wonder what looks are for after a certain age…perhaps for the fun, beauty, and challenge of it. because human bodies are capable of so much more than we realize when we apply our minds. the brain is the first zone of attraction, in my opinion. we can sense someone’s mind by how they behave, their vibes. as for the difference between brain and mind…for another post, perhaps something to do with individual versus universal
I think in an ideal family set up (which of course is rarer these days) grandchildren learn a lot from wise and experienced grandparents even more so in the pre-adult years so grandparents who are and have been attractive people are going to have a much wider field of experience from which to guide, advise and even entertain the young ones.
I’m going bald. Accordingly, I will kill myself. It’s that simple.
Don't do th at. I think men can look bad ass bald! Add some facial hair...it is a winner.
Bald is a great look. Even for a rare few women! They say if you go bald around the forehead it means you think ,if you go bald at the back of the head it means youre sexy,if you go bald all over it means you think you're sexy! Sorry couldnt resist old joke
Oh David ! Ego? Crushed yam I. Not included in your fav reads. Shame on you. I’m one of 6 girls born. Raised . Bev Hills CA. Grad Marymount High school. Competition??!! I was auburn hair. Resplendently freckled amongst tanned, blond beauties. Never felt my ID. I did develop a long , thin figure. Not curvy. Not busty or thick in the arse. Bikini material. Burned holes in my husband’s eyes some 4 decades ago. Speaking of men and hall pass. Cillian Murphy. Polar opposite my husband who’s tall, used to be dark and still hairy! Or Eddie Redmayne. Planted a kiss on my blushing cheeks after a celebration of a treasured friend’s life in nyc years ago. Daniel Day Lewis . Redmayne , other actors eulogized.Daniel’s last stage appearance .You compared in this post. You beat in looks ! Not acting.
Jennifer, "burned holes in my husband's eyes" says it all.
This was such a grin. The pix! Wonderful. I met my ex-husband three times before I noticed he was terribly handsome —and looked like Christopher Reeve 😂 As to vanity… yes, hardwired from culture, but also having had full facial recon at 45, I yearn for my “before” face—the set of my jaw, the shape of my eyes. Not that they didn’t try. But that’s who I knew for so long. My hall pass… I don’t have one, after working in Hollywood. Maybe Skarsgard for pure brooding fire. It’s more about love and a kind of tender curiosity. Rare these days.
Alisa, aren't there many Skarsgard's? I can't keep track of them.
Me neither. The one I’m talking about has the best hair and always looks like he’s about to plunder something. 😂
I think so far I am the youngest commenter, about to turn 52 next week. I don't know how it happened organically, but my blond colored hair got to a point where it seemed that I had to decide. Grow it out and stop coloring it or get back to it. I didn't make a conscious decision. Maybe procrastination was my friend for once. My hairdresser had kept telling me my gray was coming in. I thought hell no, I am 50. Well I am now all natural. My husband commented one day when I was saying how dark my natural hair is, with highlights of sort of gray. And his comment. I love it like that, much better than blond. I almost died and then thought I was going to punch him! He never said a word about my hair for 25 years (except when I cut it short). And here he was telling me the darker, gray infused was lovely. Who knew! I guess I thought all men wanted a blond. Or maybe I am growing into my more mature self and that suits this period of my life. I do know he prefers a more natural and less fussy way of life. So maybe that is why he likes the brunette I am. His doppleganger is Kevin Costner and me, Jamie Lee Curtis. Fun post today. And as far as before and after, the problem with the after, he probably says no to a lot of life, including his partner! The rigidity that takes is great maybe for the person being rigid in their routines, but who wants to live with all the devotion that takes at the expense of being in the moment.
Costner and Jamie Lee Curtis are great doppelgängers. Yeah, definitely an obsessive vibe from after-guy!
I'm a dark haired brunette person,or I was. My sister has been blonde all her life. Her natural hair colour after early childhood was that sort of light brownish almost blonde colour so from the age of 20 my sister coloured her hair and has always been blonde (and beautiful) then two years ago money was tight so she had to pass on her regular hair salon visit to get her roots done. A week or so later my sister noticed - no darker roots! She let her hair grow out and - miracle- it is now naturally that lovely white silver blonde, the expensive looking kind,it just grows like that ,and it's not costing her a penny! Me,when my hair started to lose its dark pigment I knew I wasn't ready for grey so I coloured it. After the first couple of tries I found my "look". I'm now purple with a green fringe and I want to add dashes of blue. It sounds bizarre but some how it works and everyone around me sees it as 'me' more than when I was my natural colour. Maybe the fact it's bizarre says something about ME.
I don’t think my wife will be shaving her head in solidarity with me, but I agree with your premise 😉.
I think we are hard wired to be vain. Natural selection and all.
But it's not really vanity,it's respect.
“And when I look at Debbie I see both the girl I first met and the woman she’s become. That combination makes me feel an affection that runs so deep I would have thought it impossible if I didn’t feel it so often.”
This was beautiful, David!
To feel this kind of deep, long-standing affection is to recognize the often overlooked but crucial role of time. It shapes our preferences, turning fleeting attraction into something so fundamental that the person becomes our very definition of beauty. I think, as a culture, we’ve come to undervalue time—and how the people who stay at our table, so to speak, shape our preferences until they become loyalties. Eventually, it becomes impossible to separate what we find attractive from who they are.
To answer your question: I think where vanity was once more about attracting a mate, it’s now become increasingly commodified and transformed into a marker of status. That makes it harder for people to loosen its grip, even when they’re partnered, even if they don’t quite know what or why they’re striving toward some elusive ideal.
Also, I completely understand Debbie’s Ethan Hawke, effortlessly cool thing. I wonder if the Before Trilogy films played a role in igniting that?!
Definitely the Before trilogy featured. Those are wonderful movies.
Thank you for calling out those sentences. They were my favorites!
Those lines were so moving to me, too 🥹