I think you have the upper hand. Let me explain. Modern couples spend an enormous amount of time watching Netflix shows and the like. It is a bonding mechanism and a way to pass time enjoying the company of a spouse. My logic is unassailable. If you have remote control hegemony, you wear the pants in the family.
As for money, I have an idea which is born purely of my hope that you will experience unmitigated connubial bliss. Send all your money to me for safe keeping.
Last night my hegemony was hacked. I had the remote and Debbie somehow used her phone to take over the inputting of a title. Just wanted to keep you up to date.
It’s hard when people come from different backgrounds involving money. I think I would have a difficult time being married to someone who had never had to struggle financially. It’s just a different perspective. I understand that it’s largely about what you’re used to, but when I see people taking fancy vacations more than once a year it strikes me as a waste of money. Yet I don’t feel that it’s my place to tell anyone else how to spend their money. One of my friends who has done well decided to give a monthly amount to the cat shelter where I volunteer. He’s a cat lover and I can guarantee that every penny goes to the cats - we have no staff just volunteers. It hasn’t cancelled any of his bike trips in Brazil or wherever and it makes me less annoyed. I would probably be with Debbie about the place but having to listen to a loud movie while trying to sleep is torture and I might have had a similar reaction. It’s nice to not have to negotiate with anyone over things like that. I’m sure you would not trade a happy marriage for turning off the movie though ! Give my love to Debbie and that’s a beautiful picture!
I've been married now for about 8 years and can say that money is usually 95% of our "fights". I put it in quotes because as someone who grew up closer to Debbie's side (probably way less cool as well) money was always a main stressor in my family growing up.
So I've found whenever I've been primed to argue over a purchase or feel slighted because we went over budget, I've had to take a step back and think is this actually me or am I just projecting what I saw growing up? It's definitely helped prevent most fights, and I say most because sometimes you have to hash it out. Even though it hurts you grow closer once everyone's feelings are out there, and you learn what needs fixing.
I enjoyed this post a lot. And while my own marriage is different, I can relate to the scope and humor of two people caring about each other deeply and working to navigate the inevitable discords that can arise.
My husband and I rarely fight about money, because we are usually aligned. But I have a feeling it might start setting in as I think he might prefer our recently out-of-the-nest kids start to take on more of their bills, while I am like "it's only been two months, they still need stuff". We'll see how this progresses...
My husband famously checks our banks statements and credit card statements online daily, just so there are no surprises. One day he came bounding up the stairs (his office is in the basement) to ask "what did you buy at Target?" With a withering glance I said "food". He never asked again. As it should be. Don't bother me about Target. If I'm dropping thousands at Neiman's or Saks, we can discuss it!
It was a revelation for me to learn how common it is for other parents to give money to their grown children. Not a thing where/when I come from. I was raised to believe kids should get a job by 16 and move out at 18.
I changed my views when I had adult children and only wish I could have helped them more.
It's a delicate balance. They are still on our insurance and phone bill, for example. But our son has outgrown his college suits and needs new ones, and I still consider that part of 'adult setting up' that we do. As opposed to him wanting new clothes for his social life, which is on him. They have their own credit cards and pay for their own food, but yes, we'll take them grocery shopping when we visit.
I can’t imagine having had such a launch. My life would have been so much easier if I had not had to struggle so hard and do without so much. It was thought to be good for grit but all it did was doom me to lifelong struggle.
We’ve been married 19 years. We never fight about money because we have none!
I can recall just one money fight: His workplace offered a bonus if you recommended a new employee who stayed for 90 days. I think the recommender and new employee would both get $300 or something.
Harrie knew someone who needed a job and helped him get hired. He told me he intended to give him his share of the bonus.
We needed it ourselves, and of course we would be paying taxes on it. He thought I was being petty and greedy by wanting us to keep it. I thought we’d be crazy to give away money when we had such urgent and pressing needs ourselves, and besides, he’d already helped the guy get a job and a bonus.
The very worst fight we ever had, and I am not making this up, was over what garbage can we should buy!
Remember the soap fight in Love in the Time of Cholera? I think a lot of couples have some ridiculous fight like that.
I remember you wrote before about that hotel – I am with Debbie, I would hate it, too. I have never much liked hotels intended for the wealthy - too much bowing and scraping. I once won a luxury weekend to Paris – the most lucrative writing I have ever done, as I had to write why I liked Eurostar Frequent Traveller in 25 words or less! We stayed in the Crillon Hotel (didn't like it, although the location was great for an early morning walk in the Tuileries), ate at Le Cinq (in Georges V Hotel), which we loved because the food was amazing and the waiters treated us as normal human beings and I think they admired the fact that I had won the meal.
As for arguments over money, nope. Ray started with none, I mean none (I paid for his first trip to the US as well as his first decent winter coat) and I came from the professional middle classes who were very stretched financially by private schools, orthodontists etc. We started with two graduate fellowships and ended up quite a lot better off, but we have never spent what we had and neither has a taste for luxury. I just asked him and neither of us could remember a single argument over money. Ours are usually over something terribly minor but are really about keeping the other's respect. I can get VERY angry for the better part of a day and then it all blows over. Too much basic respect and love for each other for any other outcome.
Money is the one thing we never fight about. We have my money, your money and our money. We have never mixed our finances and the 'our money' is only for our joint expenses. I have no more idea about how much my husband has, than he has about how much I have. This strict way of going on has served us well for 30 years.,
July 29, 1981. Just shy of a year before I was a 21 year old bride. I sat with my mom watching the wedding of the century and said - "They will have the perfect marriage. There will be no arguments about whether to have children, where they should live, or over money." I can remember it so vividly because my blessed mother married 33 years had the restraint to not call me an idiot, and because I began to know within that year the effort to have alignment between two people.
Uh, sorry, but that was not a fight about money. That was a fight about ostentation. Real fights about money are based on scarcity, not excess. People who need to carefully watch what they spend are forced to make choices you are not, and conflict over those choices can become extreme and damaging. Our daughter's babysitter from when she was little asked me what the secret of a successful marriage--ours--was and I told her that you have to learn how to fight. Fights between spouses are inevitable but they need to be kept within limits--there are things you simply cannot say not matter how angry you get because they cannot be taken back. That is much harder to do when the fight is about making hard choices about how to spend a very limited amount of money. You and Debbie had...and have...none of those issues, which many (most) other people do. My apologies, David, but you're a little tone deaf here.
My experience of wealthy people is that fights about money are common. Perhaps there's an ideal where neither scarcity nor excess come into play. I don't know scarcity but I know of so many long and bitter fights among wealthy couples and wealthy families that involve money.
Of course that's true. But in the same way that money is an artificial medium...always representing something else...arguments about money have a subtext, are also always about something else. The something else when rich people argument is generally, albeit not always, different from the something else that non-rich people argue.
It is different but a lot of money can be toxic. I think about how many engagements have been ended because of pre-nup discussions. A rich family’s “problem” but a problem nevertheless.
No doubt that's true. But the sources of those fights are different, and as such, to me, the analogy breaks down. I don't see how fighting about a pre-nup, or, say, shares of a hefty inheritance, equates with fighting over waht might be termed necessities. Each reveals something about those who are fighting, but not the same thing.
For the psychotherapist in me, I found this article very disturbing.
Money is power. You have the advantage of immense generational wealth. Why do you feel less powerful in your marriage?
You are aware that your wife feels uncomfortable in that resort. You have the option to go anywhere, why do you insist on returning there?
Why did her act of self-care by opting out on the communal dinner cause you such anxiety that your “evening was ruined?” Are you not curious why she felt the need to opt out?
Why do you enjoy (crave, perhaps) being segregated in such opulence? Can you respect that others may find it uncomfortable and smothering?
Why, when you angrily returned to the room, did you choose to be passive-aggressive and not confront your wife with your honest feelings? Rage generally is not based in real-time but an expression of past violations. What was your rage really about? Who in your life had the power to frustrate you so and you felt powerless to confront?
I felt sad and empty after reading this. What were you feeling when writing it? Why, of all your life experiences, did this one take prominence?
The really interesting question is why you found the article so disturbing. And why it made you feel empty and sad. Why did it have such. a powerful effect on you?
What affected me the most was your description of your rage and the act of psychological violence towards your wife. That there was no introspection, no mutual discussion, and no resolution probably reminds me of my own similar behavior in my youth. But this is not about me, but your story.
I ask the questions in an attempt to better understand your motivations. I share my reactions to the story to honestly reflect how your actions may be perceived by another. Which brings up another question: why did you deflect attention to me away from you? You are also 'married' to your story, you know.
Realize that this fight was 18 years ago, that we reconciled the very next day, and that we laugh about it now. This was a family vacation and an opportunity to be with my brothers and father. It was a tradition that Debbie married into.
I picked this story because I think it's funny in retrospect. Mostly because of my immaturity.
I did not intend to make anyone feel deep and negative emotions.
You didn't "make" me feel deep emotions; they are my reactions to the events you shared. You will take from my response what you wish. I own my countertransference reactions and will be interested in others' reactions.
With huge apologies in advance for unwonted offensiveness I'd love to comment. First,you made my day. I was feeling a bit lost,not low exactly and your post CHEERED ME UP. Rich People with their Crystal Chandeliers fight like ordinary people! I'm ashamed of how happy your post made me feel as it's vulgar and ignoble. But funny too. You wrote it funny so I think I'm not too untoward in taking it with humour. I'm glad you both made up. I think money can be a stumbling block in all relationships,within families,and with friends too. Like you have a really good friend who understands you and is ON YOUR SIDE but you notice that it's always YOU paying out and you wonder if they'd have such clear insight if you stopped paying out. So you do and sure enough,you've got no more money,they've got no more time. But annoyingly they then tell you how hurt THEY are and how theyve NEVER SAID hurtful things to you,when all you said was,can you pay this time? And as for probate issues,people who think Jarndyce v. Jarndyce is only in old novels are wrong.
Rereading this is like catching up with a friend. Last time I may have missed the beautiful photo of you and Debbie.
I think you have the upper hand. Let me explain. Modern couples spend an enormous amount of time watching Netflix shows and the like. It is a bonding mechanism and a way to pass time enjoying the company of a spouse. My logic is unassailable. If you have remote control hegemony, you wear the pants in the family.
As for money, I have an idea which is born purely of my hope that you will experience unmitigated connubial bliss. Send all your money to me for safe keeping.
Cheers
With hegemony comes great responsibility. And great expectation to perform.
Last night my hegemony was hacked. I had the remote and Debbie somehow used her phone to take over the inputting of a title. Just wanted to keep you up to date.
It’s hard when people come from different backgrounds involving money. I think I would have a difficult time being married to someone who had never had to struggle financially. It’s just a different perspective. I understand that it’s largely about what you’re used to, but when I see people taking fancy vacations more than once a year it strikes me as a waste of money. Yet I don’t feel that it’s my place to tell anyone else how to spend their money. One of my friends who has done well decided to give a monthly amount to the cat shelter where I volunteer. He’s a cat lover and I can guarantee that every penny goes to the cats - we have no staff just volunteers. It hasn’t cancelled any of his bike trips in Brazil or wherever and it makes me less annoyed. I would probably be with Debbie about the place but having to listen to a loud movie while trying to sleep is torture and I might have had a similar reaction. It’s nice to not have to negotiate with anyone over things like that. I’m sure you would not trade a happy marriage for turning off the movie though ! Give my love to Debbie and that’s a beautiful picture!
Thanks April. It is fun to poke fun at myself and remember how irrational I was.
Thank you for sharing this splendid piece with us.
Hey David, great article.
I've been married now for about 8 years and can say that money is usually 95% of our "fights". I put it in quotes because as someone who grew up closer to Debbie's side (probably way less cool as well) money was always a main stressor in my family growing up.
So I've found whenever I've been primed to argue over a purchase or feel slighted because we went over budget, I've had to take a step back and think is this actually me or am I just projecting what I saw growing up? It's definitely helped prevent most fights, and I say most because sometimes you have to hash it out. Even though it hurts you grow closer once everyone's feelings are out there, and you learn what needs fixing.
Thanks Dennis. It's great when you can look back at a fight and laugh about it.
I think I love Debbie. (The comment about loafers without socks! Amen, sister.) And I ADORED this post. So very much.
Thanks Diana. I;very much appreciate passed this on to Debbie.
I enjoyed this post a lot. And while my own marriage is different, I can relate to the scope and humor of two people caring about each other deeply and working to navigate the inevitable discords that can arise.
Thanks Manorama. And, yes, some discord is inevitable.
My husband and I rarely fight about money, because we are usually aligned. But I have a feeling it might start setting in as I think he might prefer our recently out-of-the-nest kids start to take on more of their bills, while I am like "it's only been two months, they still need stuff". We'll see how this progresses...
My husband famously checks our banks statements and credit card statements online daily, just so there are no surprises. One day he came bounding up the stairs (his office is in the basement) to ask "what did you buy at Target?" With a withering glance I said "food". He never asked again. As it should be. Don't bother me about Target. If I'm dropping thousands at Neiman's or Saks, we can discuss it!
It was a revelation for me to learn how common it is for other parents to give money to their grown children. Not a thing where/when I come from. I was raised to believe kids should get a job by 16 and move out at 18.
I changed my views when I had adult children and only wish I could have helped them more.
It's a delicate balance. They are still on our insurance and phone bill, for example. But our son has outgrown his college suits and needs new ones, and I still consider that part of 'adult setting up' that we do. As opposed to him wanting new clothes for his social life, which is on him. They have their own credit cards and pay for their own food, but yes, we'll take them grocery shopping when we visit.
I can’t imagine having had such a launch. My life would have been so much easier if I had not had to struggle so hard and do without so much. It was thought to be good for grit but all it did was doom me to lifelong struggle.
Thanks Pam, for the comment. Once a day is intense! But I'm a big believer that knowing what you spend money on can be a way to lower stress.
We’ve been married 19 years. We never fight about money because we have none!
I can recall just one money fight: His workplace offered a bonus if you recommended a new employee who stayed for 90 days. I think the recommender and new employee would both get $300 or something.
Harrie knew someone who needed a job and helped him get hired. He told me he intended to give him his share of the bonus.
We needed it ourselves, and of course we would be paying taxes on it. He thought I was being petty and greedy by wanting us to keep it. I thought we’d be crazy to give away money when we had such urgent and pressing needs ourselves, and besides, he’d already helped the guy get a job and a bonus.
The very worst fight we ever had, and I am not making this up, was over what garbage can we should buy!
Remember the soap fight in Love in the Time of Cholera? I think a lot of couples have some ridiculous fight like that.
Your husband is a very generous soul!
He is. It’s annoying sometimes. :)
Thanks Michelle for your contributions to these discussions. They are very much appreciated.
I remember you wrote before about that hotel – I am with Debbie, I would hate it, too. I have never much liked hotels intended for the wealthy - too much bowing and scraping. I once won a luxury weekend to Paris – the most lucrative writing I have ever done, as I had to write why I liked Eurostar Frequent Traveller in 25 words or less! We stayed in the Crillon Hotel (didn't like it, although the location was great for an early morning walk in the Tuileries), ate at Le Cinq (in Georges V Hotel), which we loved because the food was amazing and the waiters treated us as normal human beings and I think they admired the fact that I had won the meal.
As for arguments over money, nope. Ray started with none, I mean none (I paid for his first trip to the US as well as his first decent winter coat) and I came from the professional middle classes who were very stretched financially by private schools, orthodontists etc. We started with two graduate fellowships and ended up quite a lot better off, but we have never spent what we had and neither has a taste for luxury. I just asked him and neither of us could remember a single argument over money. Ours are usually over something terribly minor but are really about keeping the other's respect. I can get VERY angry for the better part of a day and then it all blows over. Too much basic respect and love for each other for any other outcome.
Ann, if you can stand on your head––and I've seen it––then I figure you're very well equipped to deal with fights!
You would think so, but he is a foot taller and has long arms so any physical fights tend to look like Tom and Jerry in cartoon hour !
Money is the one thing we never fight about. We have my money, your money and our money. We have never mixed our finances and the 'our money' is only for our joint expenses. I have no more idea about how much my husband has, than he has about how much I have. This strict way of going on has served us well for 30 years.,
That's unusual Liz in my experience. Usually couples are told to be transparent. but I cannot argue with your success!
We married late, we both had careers and previous marriages and we have total trust. That’s why we do it the way we do.
I don't want to brag, but the fights I've had with my husband are WAY worse than what you described. You and Debbie need to step up your game! 😆
Johanna, you've thrown down the gauntlet. Do I dare pick it up?
July 29, 1981. Just shy of a year before I was a 21 year old bride. I sat with my mom watching the wedding of the century and said - "They will have the perfect marriage. There will be no arguments about whether to have children, where they should live, or over money." I can remember it so vividly because my blessed mother married 33 years had the restraint to not call me an idiot, and because I began to know within that year the effort to have alignment between two people.
Lydia, great example that extreme privilege can be toxic.
Uh, sorry, but that was not a fight about money. That was a fight about ostentation. Real fights about money are based on scarcity, not excess. People who need to carefully watch what they spend are forced to make choices you are not, and conflict over those choices can become extreme and damaging. Our daughter's babysitter from when she was little asked me what the secret of a successful marriage--ours--was and I told her that you have to learn how to fight. Fights between spouses are inevitable but they need to be kept within limits--there are things you simply cannot say not matter how angry you get because they cannot be taken back. That is much harder to do when the fight is about making hard choices about how to spend a very limited amount of money. You and Debbie had...and have...none of those issues, which many (most) other people do. My apologies, David, but you're a little tone deaf here.
My experience of wealthy people is that fights about money are common. Perhaps there's an ideal where neither scarcity nor excess come into play. I don't know scarcity but I know of so many long and bitter fights among wealthy couples and wealthy families that involve money.
Of course that's true. But in the same way that money is an artificial medium...always representing something else...arguments about money have a subtext, are also always about something else. The something else when rich people argument is generally, albeit not always, different from the something else that non-rich people argue.
It is different but a lot of money can be toxic. I think about how many engagements have been ended because of pre-nup discussions. A rich family’s “problem” but a problem nevertheless.
No doubt that's true. But the sources of those fights are different, and as such, to me, the analogy breaks down. I don't see how fighting about a pre-nup, or, say, shares of a hefty inheritance, equates with fighting over waht might be termed necessities. Each reveals something about those who are fighting, but not the same thing.
For the psychotherapist in me, I found this article very disturbing.
Money is power. You have the advantage of immense generational wealth. Why do you feel less powerful in your marriage?
You are aware that your wife feels uncomfortable in that resort. You have the option to go anywhere, why do you insist on returning there?
Why did her act of self-care by opting out on the communal dinner cause you such anxiety that your “evening was ruined?” Are you not curious why she felt the need to opt out?
Why do you enjoy (crave, perhaps) being segregated in such opulence? Can you respect that others may find it uncomfortable and smothering?
Why, when you angrily returned to the room, did you choose to be passive-aggressive and not confront your wife with your honest feelings? Rage generally is not based in real-time but an expression of past violations. What was your rage really about? Who in your life had the power to frustrate you so and you felt powerless to confront?
I felt sad and empty after reading this. What were you feeling when writing it? Why, of all your life experiences, did this one take prominence?
The really interesting question is why you found the article so disturbing. And why it made you feel empty and sad. Why did it have such. a powerful effect on you?
What affected me the most was your description of your rage and the act of psychological violence towards your wife. That there was no introspection, no mutual discussion, and no resolution probably reminds me of my own similar behavior in my youth. But this is not about me, but your story.
I ask the questions in an attempt to better understand your motivations. I share my reactions to the story to honestly reflect how your actions may be perceived by another. Which brings up another question: why did you deflect attention to me away from you? You are also 'married' to your story, you know.
Realize that this fight was 18 years ago, that we reconciled the very next day, and that we laugh about it now. This was a family vacation and an opportunity to be with my brothers and father. It was a tradition that Debbie married into.
I picked this story because I think it's funny in retrospect. Mostly because of my immaturity.
I did not intend to make anyone feel deep and negative emotions.
You didn't "make" me feel deep emotions; they are my reactions to the events you shared. You will take from my response what you wish. I own my countertransference reactions and will be interested in others' reactions.
Well played. H/T
With huge apologies in advance for unwonted offensiveness I'd love to comment. First,you made my day. I was feeling a bit lost,not low exactly and your post CHEERED ME UP. Rich People with their Crystal Chandeliers fight like ordinary people! I'm ashamed of how happy your post made me feel as it's vulgar and ignoble. But funny too. You wrote it funny so I think I'm not too untoward in taking it with humour. I'm glad you both made up. I think money can be a stumbling block in all relationships,within families,and with friends too. Like you have a really good friend who understands you and is ON YOUR SIDE but you notice that it's always YOU paying out and you wonder if they'd have such clear insight if you stopped paying out. So you do and sure enough,you've got no more money,they've got no more time. But annoyingly they then tell you how hurt THEY are and how theyve NEVER SAID hurtful things to you,when all you said was,can you pay this time? And as for probate issues,people who think Jarndyce v. Jarndyce is only in old novels are wrong.
Thanks Jane. And absolutely, I think this is a funny story. Mostly at my own expense.